Tuesday, May 12, 2009

are grains all bad?

There is no nutritional requirement for carbohydrates for dogs. There is also none for fiber, though we well recognize the benefits, and the same could be said for other nutrients like glutamine, Vitamin C and even probiotics. Carbohydrates (in the form of starches) contain calories. Grains contain carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, fiber, and a little protein.

Recently, carbohydrates (presumably starch, in particular) included in diets for dogs have been vilified, especially in the form of grains such as rice, wheat, corn, barley, oats, etc. The reasons are myriad:

Fallacy 1: Dogs have a shorter GI tract than people, so they cannot digest grains unless they are partially digested first.
Fact: Decades of research proves that dogs digest grains as well as starch quite well.
• The lack of salivary amylase has been stated to be one reason why dogs don’t digest carbohydrates well. Why would dogs need salivary amylase when they gulp their food? Dogs produce potent pancreatic amylase as well as ‘brush border’ enzymes to digest their carbs (like humans).
• Most digestion of carbohydrate occurs in the first part of the small intestine (like humans).
• Some have stated that dogs have more acidic stomachs and retain food in their stomachs longer than people, making a meat based diet more suitable for dogs since protein is initially digested in the stomach. The pH of the dog's stomach ranges from 1.08 to 5.5 (Ouyang et al., 2006, Smith, 1965, Buddington et al., 2003, Sagawa 2009). For people, the pH ranges from 1-4 (Krause's Food and Nutrition Therapy). This makes the acidity equivalent between the species, with the dog ranging slightly more alkaline in certain settings.
It is true that like humans, dogs cannot digest cellulose, a single structural carbohydrate used by plants to form stalks, seed coats, vegetable structure etc. Only herbivores like cows can digest cellulose, turning it into some other vital nutrient, but it doesn’t seem reasonable to compare the GI tracts of dogs and people to cows. Canine digestive physiology resembles human digestive physiology much more closely, so grains and veggies should be cooked or ground as finely as possible (either before or during the act of chewing) to derive the benefits contained in them.

Fallacy 2: Feeding carbohydrates place stress on the pancreas.
Fact: The pancreas was created to produce enzymes to digest fats, proteins and starches. That’s its job. Many people feed digestive enzymes as a daily supplement, I suppose to support what they see as this delicate flower of an organ do its job with protein and fat. There is evidence that supplementing enzymes actually downregulates the pancreas’ own production of proteases. That’s not necessarily a good thing – see my blog from 1-27-09 for more information. But during bouts of pancreatic inflammation (otherwise known as pancreatitis), where those very enzymes are released to cause inflammation and damage to the pancreas and surrounding organs and tissues, the treatment is to reduce fat in the diet in order to suppress production of those enzymes. The treatment is…….high starch diets - and they work.

Fallacy 3: Since food moves through the GI tract rapidly, there is no time to ferment carbohydrates and therefore no need for them. Because carbohydrates are not fermented, if they are included in the diet they will cause gas and voluminous stools.
Fact: Like humans, dogs harbour many lactic acid producing bacteria which ferment starch and soluble fibers contained in grains. This fermentation itself can cause gas. Odiferous gas can also be caused by clostridial organisms. Clostridia are more numerous in the GI tract when dogs are fed a high meat, high fat diet such as raw, grainless diets.

Fallacy 4: Grains cause allergies.
Fact: If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the proteins in the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers. I will admit that I’ve seen higher numbers of corn allergy than would be suggested by these numbers, as well, but please note that grains do not constitute the majority of allergy offenders.

While dogs do not require the starch found in grains or potatoes or any other food, there are some instances where you still might derive benefit from them being there. For instance, grains (and starch-containing tubers) contain certain fibers that are beneficial for the growth of probiotic bacteria in the gut. They also contain various required vitamins and minerals. And since grains, as compared to meats, contain lower fat contents, they can be used as a “place-holder” in a diet that fills a dog up while reducing the fat content. I’ve seen people feed pitifully small amounts of raw diets to dogs whose weights needed better control. Poor hungry dogs!

This is not to say I approve of diets formulated with high concentrations of starch-containing ingredients simply to limit cost. I just want to note that there is no reason to expressly avoid them unless your dog has a specific intolerance to them or some condition that requires use of a diet that is low in carbohydrates. And remember that cats are another matter entirely- they are true, pure carnivores, and as such, should probably not be fed diets that contain noticeable carbohydrate levels.

Back to carbohydrates vs grains – take this to the bank: If it’s a dry kibble, it contains carbohydrates. This is because kibble is made by the process of extrusion, which doesn’t work without a certain minimal level of starch. So those grainless diets that sound so good, and so paleolithic – yeah, those contain carbohydrates. Just in the form of potato, tapioca, or other starch containing food.

My point is that if we are going to eschew grains, let’s do it for the right reasons, and if we instead want to avoid starch, we *have* to read the labels carefully.

34 comments:

  1. I realize this is an old post, but I felt I needed to add something to this.

    The allergy studies you cite rely on what we KNOW to be inaccurate serum testing.

    In a decade of treating allergies, dogs are inevitably improved by the removal of grain in the diet.

    Also, there is issue (I'm sure you'll agree) with grains even being part of the diet in cows and yes, humans. Our health began to degrade when we introduced agriculture and subsequently, grain to our diet.

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  2. Actually, the allergy studies I mention are cited in Verlinden, 2006, and are all based on elimination and challenge, so you are incorrect if you are trying to say that grains are more common than meats/dairy as dog and cat allergens.

    In 23 years of practice, and much of my practice based on allergy treatment, I have not found grain to be any more or less of a problem than meats/dairy.

    And I do not agree that grains are a problem in the diet of cows and humans. They always have been and can be included as a very healthy part of the diet if done properly. Humans die early from eating too much factory-farmed animal flesh and not getting enough exercise, not from eating too many whole grains, unless we are talking simply too many calories from either.

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  3. I have helped an animal rescue group since 2004 with large animal groups daily. I have learned due to the volume of animal populations coming and going that dogs at our rescue with allergies are allergic to these things; dairy and lamb so far. My study would include pets at my home and rescue dogs. These are ingredients in foods that I am pretty sure are the culprit. The dogs show inward and outward signs of skin dissorders, projectile throwing up, liver cancer, and autoimmune difficientcy syndrome. I do feel that I have seen that the food is the problem. When the diet is changed these very dogs have all survived except for the one with liver cancer which we may have caught far too late. Not only have they survived but all outward and inward signs are gone. A feedstore dogfood called lonestar- star pro was the regular diet of these dogs for 7 years and I see skin dissorders mostly. These dogs also eat the feces of other dogs and I believe it has something to do with the longstar food diet. I have switched the most severe cases to higher quailty dog food with a mixture of boiled rice and chicken on top of a chicken based dog food, (Science diet sensitive skin and coat) and seen wonderful results. May not work on all but as I can afford it I will take this simple dog food test on all dogs at this rescue.

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  4. "And I do not agree that grains are a problem in the diet of cows and humans."

    Then perhaps you should stick to your field of expertise - archeologists will tell you flat out that our health began to decline dramatically with with invention of agriculture, and those who study animals such as bovines (grass eaters being forced to consume an unnatural diet) have long been aware that issues such as e.coli are GREATLY exacerbated by the consumption of corn.

    Mari, you are overpaying for Science Diet Skin and Coat. Many foods with higher quality ingredients are available for less. Acana Adult, for example, is a chicken and fish based product that contains 20% grain (consisting of whole rice and whole oats) and no overseas outsourcing of food ingredients.

    As for the "no reason to feed grain free unless you have a reason" line, that sounds hauntingly familiar to what a Science Diet rep once told me. She said that sure, dogs and cats with bowel trouble, diabetes, cancer, joint problems and recurrent yeast/bacterial infections could certainly benefit from a grain free diet, but "normal, healthy" animals didn't require it.

    Uh-huh. Or I could just feed my pets the very best nutrition NOW, from the beginning - instead of simply waiting to see if/when an issue would develop.

    Finally, the comparison of fibre to carb is a little out there - let alone the comparison to vitamins. There's a big difference between a dog eating a diet consisting of 3% of something he has no requirement for (fibre) and a diet made of 30-70% of something he has no requirement for (grains/carbs) particularly when that ingredient is being used as an alternative to actually useful ingredients (pea/potato/rice/wheat protein anyone?).

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  5. So "The Dog House", are you saying that your field of expertise is archeology? This is indeed serendipitous - please post your references for your claims so that we can see if reputable archeologists really say that grains were the downfall of human kind, healthwise.

    I've read about the paleodiet and absolutely agree that it is the healthy choice for most people. But there is a great deal more to its health effects than just eating no grain. Hunter-gatherers certainly ate grains in season - they would have been a high value food. Hunter gatherers were limited by the environment and also had a different lifestyle with more exercise. They also did not live as long as we did because of the limitations of their environments. Modern people are unhealthy not just becuase they eat grains - it's becuase they eat refined foods, and too much of them, and don't get enough exercise.

    So again, if you have the scientific references that say that grains - separated from food refining, the modern lifestyle, etc - are unhealthy for the majority of the human and dog population, I'd love to see them.

    >>>Finally, the comparison of fibre to carb is a little out there - let alone the comparison to vitamins<<<

    I'm sorry, I think you misunderstand. I was comparing the nutrients in grains to other nutrients that we consider to be nonessential. There is nothing 'out there' about it unless your bias against grains is extreme. Which it apparently is to a degree that you cannot see a rational treatment of the subject.

    >>>There's a big difference between a dog eating a diet consisting of 3% of something he has no requirement for (fibre) and a diet made of 30-70% of something he has no requirement for (grains/carbs) particularly when that ingredient is being used as an alternative to actually useful ingredients (pea/potato/rice/wheat protein anyone?).<<<

    Yes, actually grains contain good fibers, vitamins and minerals, protein, fatty acids, etc as do pea, potatoes, etc. You might try a comparison of the nutrient contents of corn, peas, and potato - you'll find they all have their strengths and weaknesses in nutrient contents.

    "The Dog House", unless you post references and identify yourself, I'll have to consider additional posts as simple harassment by a troll. I would love a better quality dialogue but must insist on some substance from your end.

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  6. Susan, I'm getting a Lab puppy in a few days and I'm going crazy with the grain vs no-grain diet arguments, like the one in this blog. Actually, after reading what you have to say, I'm more convinced that a small amount of grain - unless the dog is allergic to it- is fine. Your explanation sound more reasonable and less extreme. Here's something else that confuses me: supermarket dog food vs so called "premium dog foods", what's your take on that? and what I hear from the "no grain" fanatics is that vets as yourself get paid a lot of money to sell the evil grain pet food. What do you say about such accusation?

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  7. I continue to be amazed at the oft-quoted claim that vets get paid money to sell pet food. In any practice I've ever worked at (that's about 8), the profit margin is actually LOWER on foods than on most drugs. I'm not sure why this is - it seems to be a deal that the pet food companies convinced vets to take in the early days of the relationship. A practice consultant once took me through the economics of carrying foods in my practice and convinced me that it was *costing me money* to stock them. Still, I stocked them as most vets do as a convenience for clients.

    Now one of the possibilities for a source of this rumor could be staff feeding programs, where a pet food company gives veterinary employees a discount on food (they don't get it for free). I view this as one of the benefits of working in a veterinary practice - you also get a discount on services and other products, like you would as an employee in many other types of businesses.

    If your pet does really well on a pet food, well, then you become an advocate, just like people who have become advocates for other types of diets like raw diets. And if your pet does badly on a pet food, it's up to you to recognize it.

    As far as I know, the claim that vets are paid money to carry pet foods is at best, ignorance, and at worst, a malicious lie. If there are documented examples of this practice that I've missed in over 25 years in this business, I'd like to hear about them.

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  8. Dr Wynn - could you site the articles re: dogs can digest grains, etc? I'm having trouble locating some that are easy to discern results from.

    Thanks!

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  9. Please see pp 54 to about 70 in the National Research Council text (Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats). This information is well established and the references are many - 7 pages of tiny text - too many for me to post.

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  10. bots!, you didn't expect a straight answer, did you? I mean, unless you count quoting a $300 text that I'm sure you just have laying around.

    Here are the references from the Carbohydrate section of the 1985 version.

    Carbohydrates

    Banta, C. A., E. T. Clemens, M. M. Krinsky, and B. E. Sheffy. 1979. Sites of organic acid production and patterns of digesta movement in the gastrointestinal tract of dogs. J. Nutr. 109:1592.

    Becker, D. E., D. E. Ullrey, S. E. Terrill, and R. A. Notzold. 1954. Failure of the newborn pig to utilize dietary sucrose. Science 120:345.

    Belo, P. S., D. R. Romsos, and G. A. Leveille. 1976. Influence of diet on glucose tolerance, on the rate of glucose utilization and on gluconeogenic enzyme activities in the dog. J. Nutr. 106:1465.

    Bennent, M. J., and E. Coon. 1966. Mellituria and postprandial blood sugar curves in dogs after ingestion of various carbohydrates with the diet. J. Nutr. 88:163.

    Bergman, E. N. 1973. Glucose metabolism in ruminants as related to hypoglycemia and ketosis. Cornell Vet. 63:341.

    Brambila, S., and F. W. Hill. 1966. Comparison of neutral fat and free fatty acids in high lipid-low carbohydrate diets for growing chickens. J. Nutr. 88:84.

    Chen, S. C-H., S. Tsai, and M. C. Nesheim. 1980. Response of rats fed diets low in glucose and glucose precursors to low levels of glucose starch and chemically modified starch. J. Nutr. 110:1023.

    Heiman, V. 1959. Nutrition and feeding of dogs. Feedstuffs, Feb. 14, pp. 18-22.

    Herschel, D. A., R. A. Argenzio, M. Southworth, and C. E. Stevens. 1981. Absorption of volatile fatty acid, Na, and H2O by the colon of the dog. Am. J. Vet. Res. 42:1118.

    Houpt, K. A., B. Coren, H. F. Hintz, and J. E. Hilderbrant. 1979. Effect of sex and reproductive status on sucrose preference, food intake, and body weight of dogs. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc. 174:1083.

    Ivy, A. C., C. R. Schmidt, and J. Beazell. 1936. Starch digestion in the dog. North Am. Vet. 17:44.

    James, W. T., and C. M. McCay. 1950. A study of food intake, activity, and digestive efficiency in different type dogs. Am. J. Vet. Res. 11:412.

    Kliegman, R. M., E. L. Miettinen, and P. A. J. Adam. 1980. Substrate-turnover interrelationships in fasting neonatal dogs. Am. J. Physiol. 239:E287.

    Luick, J. R., H. R. Parker, and A. C. Anderson. 1960. Composition of beagle dog milk. Am. J. Physiol. 119:731.

    Milner, J. A. 1979. Assessment of indispensable and dispensable amino acids for the immature dog. J. Nutr. 109:1161.

    Romsos, D. R., P. S. Belo, M. R. Bennink, W. G. Bergen, and G. A. Leveille. 1976. Effects of dietary carbohydrate, fat and protein on growth, body composition and blood metabolite levels in the dog. J. Nutr. 106:1452.

    Romsos, D. R., H. J. Palmer, K. L. Muiruri, and M. R. Bennink. 1981. Influence of a low carbohydrate diet on performance of pregnant and lactating dogs. J. Nutr. 111:678.

    Roseboom, B. B., and J. W. Patton. 1929. Starch digestion in the dog. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc. 74:768.

    Taylor, S. A., R. E. Shrader, K. G. Koski, and F. J. Zeman. 1983. Maternal and embryonic response to a ''carbohydrate-free" diet fed to rats. J. Nutr. 113:253.


    Please note that you will not find a single reference to carbohydrate requirements, grain requirements, protein maximums or carb minimums.

    All of the science points towards grain free, low carb diets (not all low carb are grain free and vice versa) being the optimal choice for the majority of dogs.

    And as a former pet food retailer, I can assure you that veterinarians only consider their food profit margin low because it's around 39% while their drug margin can reach as high as 300%. Just because you can screw us on the pharmaceuticals you think you should be able to screw us on the food too? It's not bad enough you're pushing an inferior product?

    You carry the product, you sell the product, you profit from the sales - ergo, you are being paid to sell a product.

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  11. On youtube there is a lecture by nutritionist Dr. Richard Patton where he says the insulin spike from feeding kibble (which is high in grain) once per day reduces dogs' lifespan by 2-4 years. If this is true, it is very alarming! He does not give any reference. Do you know if this is based on some solid research?

    Thanks for a great site and blog!

    Angela

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  12. I can't comment on Dr. Patton or his information, as there is nothing on his site about his training or credentials, and this statement is not referenced.

    That said, any food will cause an insulin spike in a dog with a functioning pancreas, but starch (which is required to make a dry food)will lead to release of higher immediate concentrations of insulin than protein or fat. Of course, kibbles are all different - some are very high in starch and the lowest starch products have plenty of protein and fat to blunt that process, so you can't make a blanket statement about the insulin response to "kibble".

    I don't know if anyone has compared the insulin release from kibble vs canned vs homemade diets that contain similar proportions of starches, fiber, protein and fat, but I suspect it hasn't been done.

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  13. When will this gimmick of feeding companion animals very high protein diets end!!! I have three friends that have 3 young dogs dogs with kidney problems now. If you are using a food with protein above 32% please stop. There is no reason for you to spend the money or put your dog at risk.

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  14. I doubt that the idea of feeding high protein, low starch diets will end, but my purpose is to teach owners that it is just one strategy for feeding - some dogs will do best on this feeding plan, while others will do better on a higher starch, lower fat diet. It depends on many things, including their owners. (The usual disclaimer about cats applies here - they are carnivores who should eat low starch, high protein diets under almost all circumstances).

    But I want to make a point here - high protein diets do NOT cause kidney disease. This is a very common misconception that still continues to rear its head even in human medicine. It has been debunked. Now, whether or not to feed a higher protein diet in animals with existing kidney disease is a different question altogether - lots of issues to consider and perhaps not well settled yet.

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    1. Hi Dr. Wynn,

      My dog, Audrey, came to me at 9 weeks old exibiting polydipsia and polyuria. These symptoms were noticed as early as 6 weeks of age. At her one year checkup she was diagnosed with chronic kidney disease. Over the next year three more blood evals were done and all came back with elevated kidney values. Other tests like a culture, urine specific gravity etc were done/checked as well.

      Jump ahead almost 7 years and my Audrey is still with me and still doing VERY well. Her symptoms are still only polyuria and polydipsia. And, she has been on a high protein diet since coming to me. I did start to include barley in her diet for the fermentable fibers but within 6 weeks she became very ill/itchy etc. I now know that the lectin proteins in the barley caused leaky gut and after a 3 month novel diet of ostrich and squash we discovered upon reintroduction that she was now allergic to cow tripe, cow bone, goat milk and barley (all the foods she ate the most often). This happened at about 2 years of age. Since I will not feed any grains at all or foods with potentially problematic lectins regularly just in case.

      When I ditched the barley I switched to a human supplement made with acacia fiber. It seems to do a much better job of nitrogen trapping the few times I need to use it for such.

      I used to home prepare all the raw meals but about three years ago things changed and time became an issue. So I switched to commercial raw foods like Bravo, Darwins and the non-HPP Primal.

      Audrey will turn 7 years old the end of June 2013 and is thriving despite her life threatening disease. She takes no allopathic medications and has never required sub q fluids etc. I do give her extra whole food vitamins, nutraceuticals, purified water etc.

      I know a lot of people who have dogs that don't have true allergies but definitely have real issues with lectin proteins. One with an issue with lectins in green beans, MANY with potato lectin issues, one with garlic lectin issues etc. But most with intolerances, that I've talked to, have issues with the lectins in grains (rice being the least problematic).

      I think grains can add value to the diet but I think that they should be sprouted or fermented in order to lessen some of the problematic aspects, like phytates and lectins.

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  15. Dr, It has been shown in study after study by Kronfeld that even highly stressed sled dogs in medium length races do not require protein above 32%. My point is that the average dog that you see in your clinic does not require 38%, 40% or even 42% protein. You do not know ahead of time which dogs are predisposed to kidney and liver trouble. It seems much more prudent to feed what the dog actually needs rather than what the marketing of a few foods claims is the truth. Many high protein foods are also very high in ash, which in the long-term is a cause for concern.

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  16. Angela, I've read over Dr. Patton's website, and the theory seems to be that constant carbohydrate stimulation of insulin release causes obesity and is at the source of all pet obesity. I can tell you that there are studies showing that excess *calories* are the cause of obesity - it doesn't matter whether the source off those calories is from carbs or fat.

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    1. Lectins can actually bind with insulin receptors. So a person eating a problematic food can gain enormous amounts of weight while eating a calorie restricted diet.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC433288/

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  17. I am not suggesting anyone feed a low protein diet but I am cautioning people that between 25% - 30% is the right number. Why is it that performance dog foods are 30-32%?? The answer is decades of real life experience has proven this level to be optimal.

    The average Goldadoodle does not experience the stress of either hunting or sled dogs.

    Isn't that a reasonable view?

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  18. It really all depends on the animals age, genetics, workload, etc. Sled dogs certainly have high energy expenditure and can serve as the best example of such a dog, but they aren't necessarily the only dogs that might need a high protein, high fat diet.

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  19. I have to disagree strongly with the cause of canine obesity. Most chronically overweight dogs are neutered or were neutered to soon. A neutered male is 3-4 times more likely to become diabetic than an intact male. That is fact.

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  20. Yes, neutering does slow the metabolic rate. It is just one cause of obesity.

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  21. Dr, I am talking about the average medium sized dog. Sure a Jack Russell might do better on a rich performance food but the vast majority of dogs will live long happy lives on a high quality 25/15. There is no reason for the average dog owner to spend $3lb on food when Canidae or Precise at $1lb is more than sufficient.

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  22. I am still unsure what to feed my dog. I have a rescue dog, whom I adopted a month ago. She is a great dane/boxer mix, about 70 lbs. She is 20 months old, and is done growing. I've had danes before and have been told not to feed danes, especially young ones, more than 24% protein because it can cause wobblers. My baby was being fed Origens in her foster home, which I just cannot sustain (a dane eats a lot and that's a pricey food). I switched her to pedigree (no comments on the quality please, I've fed many many dogs pedigree and have had no problems and our vets have not given any other recommendations). Anyway, she's developing acne on her chin (does not use plastic bowls...her bowls get washed every day and her chin is washed after every meal). I think it might be the food, maybe too oily?....so I'm trying to find the right food for her...I'm just lost. I want a good quality food, but something I will be able to sustain, remembering that she's a big dog!

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  23. Susan,

    I have to ask if you use Nature's Variety since you are an advisor to the company.

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  24. I don't answer anonymous postings, as a rule, and your profile is blank except that it is named "Nature's Variety". I'm happy to answer this question publicly after you identify yourself and your affiliation to the company.

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    1. I didn't feel like filling out the whole profile. Sorry. My name is Sam and have ZERO affiliation with the company or any company. I was on the NV website and saw you serve as an advisor. That is all.

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  25. Wow. It's nice to see the scientific truth for a change instead of people twisting it all up to suit their skewed, romantic notions of dogs being wolves requiring nothing more than (raw) meat, bones and fat.

    People like to throw the term "biologically appropriate" around when what they feed is anything but. Dogs have evolved into NON-obligate carnivores for a reason, able to digest starch and benefit from vegetable matter without needing to digest cellulose, and people need to accept that and feed accordingly. There are many benefits to be had from the addition of foods other than just meat products. Feeding dogs a diet solely comprised of meat, bone and fat is akin to feeding cats a vegetarian only diet.

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  26. My 12 year old Aussie Shepherd/Cattledog mix has cancer for the 3rd time. Other than this fast growing sarcoma, he's extremely healthy. After the cancer in his pectoral Muscle came back again, I did some research on what to feed him as the only solution my vet provided was to debulk the tumor a third time or remove the muscle entirely. I didn't want to put him through that again, and Of course there was no guarantee that this would cure it. What I found was that grain free diets have helped with others. Hes now eating chick/turkey, beans and veggies. I can tell you that after a month of taking him off his kibble (the most expensive stuff @ petsmart), his cancer has shrunk by at least 50%! His energy level is back to precancerous levels, he's a lot more active, doesn't scratch at the spot, and he's so much happier.

    I can't say that it will work for everyone, but it has made a huge difference with my boy.

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  27. OH....so science diet and royal canin are good foods to feed then? NO I have found many issue's linking those foods and many others to the most common health issues in dogs and cats. You shouldnt steer people in the wrong way to feeding foods that have crap for ingrediants. This website really proves you shouldnt believe everything on the internet.

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  28. Where did you read in this posting that I endorsed any brand of food as 'good foods to feed'? Perhaps you should re-read the post, especially where I said, and I quote:

    "This is not to say I approve of diets formulated with high concentrations of carbohydrates simply to limit cost. I just want to note that there is no reason to expressly avoid them unless your dog has a specific intolerance to them or some condition that requires use of a diet that is low in carbohydrates."

    Some dogs do better on paleolithic diets, and some dogs get fat or get diarrhea on them. My diet philosophy is to assess each dog individually, but those who are so close-minded as to insist that raw paleolithic diets are right for every dog will never be able to wrap their minds around the need for the individual approach.

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  29. Quinoa,carrots,celery and maybe a little oats. My boy( jack russel ) is fit,alert,and ten years old. Homemade food is the way to go for dogs .

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